TV Interview on Focus with Jim MacGillavry on LGBT Marketing & Communications

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Jenn Grace Interview – Focus with Jim MacGillavry

Watch my interview on “Focus with Jim MacGillavry.”  We talk about making the business case for any company to begin marketing their business to the LGBT community, as well as how to communicate with LGBT customers better – and much, much more!

My interview on Focus with Jim MacGillavryoriginally aired May 2016.


Would you prefer to read the transcript than watch the interview? No problem! Read the transcript below.

Jenn T. Grace – Focus Interview with Jim MacGillavry



Jim MacGillavry:         Hello you’re watching Focus, and of course we thank you for tuning in. Today we have as our guest Jenn Grace, who has a very specific and rather unique business marketing manner. Jenn, thank you so much for being a guest.


Jenn T Grace:              Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.


Jim MacGillavry:         This is interesting. A friend of mine gave me your business card, and said, “Jenn would be a very interesting person to have. You’ve got to get her on.” I said, “Okay.” So when I mentioned it to a few of my colleagues that I was going to have a professional lesbian as a guest on Focus, you get those looks and those looks are asking questions of, ‘What the hell is a professional lesbian?’ And I said, “I don’t know what that means.” So I’m asking you to be here to explain to our viewers what is a professional lesbian?


Jenn T Grace:              Well it started off as a joke. So I previously ran an LGBT organization for many years, and I’ve been involved in LGBT related marketing or communications or business type endeavors since 2006-2007.


Jim MacGillavry:         LGBT stands for-?


Jenn T Grace:              Oh yes. Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, so that’s LGBT.


Jim MacGillavry:         Okay.


Jenn T Grace:              And for the longest time, I would just say, “Oh yeah I’m a professional lesbian for a living.” And I just kind of jokingly kept saying it, and then when I was morphing my company to what it is now in about 2012, I was like you know, I’ve been saying this for all these years, I just need to call a spade a spade, and just say I’m a professional lesbian because what I do every day is I teach straight people how to market to gay people, and gay people how to market themselves. So it’s a really catchy tagline that most people are like, ‘What is that?’


Jim MacGillavry:         What is that?


Jenn T Grace:              It works like a charm. So when I go to conferences and they see that the professional lesbian is putting on this session, people will come just to find out exactly what that means. So it works beautifully every time. And it worked in this case as well.


Jim MacGillavry:         So how did this all begin for you? You must have a back history of where it started and where you are now.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah so it started back in 2006-ish, or actually even 2004 when I got my first job out of college that wasn’t in retail. So I was in retail management for years all through college and then I was like, ‘You know I want to get an actual office job, a desk job,’ and my degrees are in marketing so I applied for a company that’s local in Connecticut that shall remain nameless, and I worked for them for a while, and the hired me as their marketing manager. So it started off as like a marketing assistant and I kind of just gradually grew into that position. But what happened is that in retail I could be out. I was just Jenn, I had a girlfriend, like everyone just knew, and retail it was kind of a very open and accepting environment, and I find that that still tends to be the case now. And I went into this office job that was a family-owned business, it had maybe 100-120 employees, nothing huge but it was kind of a corporate setting but like a family-owned business. It was an interesting kind of dynamic. And what ended up happening is I would hear people calling me a dyke behind my back. Or my boss at the time told a co-worker of mine that I had that captain of the softball team lesbian look about me. So that started to happen really early on, and I hadn’t come out to anybody at the time except for a couple- one of my marketing peers and a couple of the salespeople. So it was very kind of on the DL if you will that I was just trying to mind my own business. I was there to do my job, not to make friends with everybody, and that kept happening over and over again. And I’m like I can’t- like it felt so bad to just be continually- you could hear people talking about you behind your back, or they’d be talking about other LGBT people and calling a client or customer that called like, “Oh he sounds like a faggot.” Saying these really derogatory things that it just- I could reconcile how that felt to me as a person. So in 2006 I went to go quit. So I was like, “I can’t do this anymore,” it had only been two years. Other than that I loved my job. I loved what I was doing, I got touch all things marketing, it was really exciting, but yet I didn’t have any respect of my peers because somebody decided they were going to start a rumor of being gay. And of course obviously it wasn’t a rumor, but it’s neither here nor there. So what ended up happening is that I went to quit and the CEO was like, “I can’t lose you, what can I do to keep you?” And I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m not happy, this is what’s happening,” and he said, “Well why don’t you go think of a project that you could work on that might make you happy.” And I’m like- and I was like 24 or 25 maybe, I was young and I’m like, “Alright I don’t know but let me come back to you.” So I came back to him with, “We’re going to market to the LGBT community.” So I came out as big and bold as you possibly could because it was like, “Well you asked me if I wanted to work on something meaningful, I decided I wanted to market to the gay community.” And that was in February, 2007. And he gave me carte blanche. He said, “Do whatever you want, attend whatever conferences you want, I want you to help our company really position ourselves as the leader in LGBT for what we sold.”


Jim MacGillavry:         That’s rather gutsy of him when you think about it.


Jenn T Grace:              And I was young and dumb, I don’t know. And he was completely supportive, so I started it. I started going to conferences, I started meeting all these people, I started telling everyone like, “You have to do business with us, we are the best.” So I would do those over and over again, and I’d be putting my name and face, not that it meant anything at that time, but going out to conferences and saying, “You totally should do business with us because we’re great for the community.” But what would happen is that I would come back home and I’d come back to the office, and I’d hear the same derogatory comments, and I’d hear the same, “This person’s a faggot, or she looks like a dyke today,” or whatever it happened to be. And then it’s like well that’s not fair to all these customers that I’m saying we’re so great, why would they want to do business with us if they knew that that’s how I was being treated? So it took two years before I couldn’t handle it anymore and I just said enough is enough. And that’s when I realized that in order to externally market your products and services to the community, you have to have that internal side where your employees are happy, and where you have proper benefit structures, and all the stuff that makes an employee want to stay with you has to be there. It’s even more so with the LGBT community. So it was my own personal experience that kind of fueled my desire to do this for a living.


Jim MacGillavry:         So that’s all that awful negativity that you took for a couple years. What happened then? Is that when you decided, ‘I’m going to teach people. I’m going to help them better understand.’ Is that what happened?


Jenn T Grace:              A little bit. So what ended up truly happening was at the time that I was kind of dealing with all this stupid workplace drama, there was an LGBT chamber of commerce forming in Connecticut, and this was in 2007. And it’s still around today, I highly recommend anyone who’s interested to check them out. But they were forming, and the founder of it reached out to me to say, “Hey can you help us with our marketing?” And I’m like, “Yeah I don’t even know what a chamber of commerce is but sign me up.” I had no idea what I was doing. And I was 26 at the time, and I slowly got involved, I joined the board, I got really involved in the marketing and that kind of stuff, and what happened is that when I was leaving my job or about to leave my job, the chamber had to make that pivotal decision of, ‘Do we hire somebody so we can grow faster? Or do we stay stagnant with this volunteer board?’ So on a complete whim I was like, ‘You know what? I quit my job.’ It paid well, I had good benefits, to go work for this nonprofit that has no money. So it was just a complete like leap of faith, and it was the best leap of faith possible. It took a long time to kind of build the stability that I previously had, but I got to interact with small businesses, non-profits, with individual people, with corporations, all on why they should be doing business with the LGBT community. So it was my corporate-ish experience meets the nonprofit-ish experience equals what my business is built on now. So I’ve talked with hundreds and hundreds of businesses over the last ten years on why this is good for business.


Jim MacGillavry:         For those of you who have just tuned in, we’re talking with Jenn Grace, and she is a marketing specialist, well she has a very unique business marketing manner with regards to the LGBT community, and vice versa. So they can better understand each other’s motives, and what we’re really trying to do here, and that’s what we’re talking about today. It’s really a pleasure to have you. You have a lot of- I did go to your website, what is your website? You may want to let us know, share with us.


Jenn T Grace:              Sure it’s So it’s my name. Or I believe if you go to you can also find it that way.


Jim MacGillavry:         And you have blogs within the website.


Jenn T Grace:              Hundreds.


Jim MacGillavry:         Hundreds of blogs?


Jenn T Grace:              I’m almost at 500.


Jim MacGillavry:         Wow.


Jenn T Grace:              It’s a lot of information, all free.


Jim MacGillavry:         And you do podcasts as well?


Jenn T Grace:              I do, I have over 100 of those as well. So I’ve been doing this day in, day out since the end of 2006, beginning of 2007.


Jim MacGillavry:         And I want to mention you have a couple books out. You can get these on Amazon?


Jenn T Grace:              Yes, absolutely.


Jim MacGillavry:         Barnes and Noble, can you get them there too?


Jenn T Grace:              I think so actually, if you go on their website, I think it’s accessible that way.


Jim MacGillavry:         So I want to show a couple of these, there we are. I like what it says here, ‘No wait, you do look gay.’ I like that. Gee. And then you have another one, ‘Six Steps to Creating a Successful LGBT Marketing Strategy: But You Don’t Look Gay.’ I love it.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah it started off as a joke because I used to hear that all the time and I’m like this is such a- when somebody says that they’re not trying to say something insulting, but they don’t realize how it’s actually coming across. So I decided I’ll add a little humor to what I do. I’m going to just title my book that. And then my business coach actually was like, “Oh you should title the second one, ‘No wait, you do look gay.’ I’m like you know what- she said it jokingly and didn’t think I would do it but of course I did anyways.


Jim MacGillavry:         I think when you have a confidence, whether it’s teaching or informing, or you’re having a business deal, I think humor is a good way to start. It kind of breaks the ice. So give us a little insight about doing business with LGBT. What are some of the finer points that you provide to inform some of our business folks who may be watching. What should they should or should not do?


Jenn T Grace:              Oh I feel like I could talk for four hours on it.


Jim MacGillavry:         I wish we could. Seriously I wish we could because I think it’s so damn interesting, but go ahead.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah I would say the bottom line, like the biggest takeaway for people to understand is that most people are coming from a place of good intention. I genuinely feel that way, and oftentimes people just say what’s on their mind such as, “But you don’t look gay,” or they’ll say something- referencing my gay lifestyle for example, that’s a big one. So for anyone listening, using the phrase gay lifestyle, take it out of your vocabulary. And it’s just something very subtle, and it doesn’t sound offensive on the surface, but when we’re talking about a lifestyle, that’s implying a choice. So when you’re saying it’s a gay lifestyle, you’re implying that I’m choosing to live this way rather than it being who I am.


Jim MacGillavry:         It’s natural.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah. So it’s just a very small fine distinction that the LGBT community picks up on immediately, but the average person is like, ‘Well why wouldn’t I say lifestyle?’ So it’s a matter of just kind of taking these small things which are all listed in my books and all throughout my website, just kind of removing it from your vocabulary. But the biggest thing is if you say something like that, and you can visibly tell that I’m now offended by whatever you’ve said- and I’m a bad example, like the average LGBT person, just apologize, that’s it. Or just say, “Is there something that I just said that might have offended you?” Especially when we’re talking about business settings. So I work with a lot of financial advisors or accountants or attorneys who have a longer sales cycle, where we have to meet a bunch of times for you actually to get my business. And if you say something really inappropriate or derogatory, I might not tell you as the average consumer, but you’re going to go to call me and I’m not going to answer the phone, and you’re going to have no idea why. ‘We were having this great meeting, and now she won’t answer my call,’ and it’s probably because of something very simple that you said. So if you can learn to read the body language of the people that you’re working with, and see that something- they just kind of shut down, now they feel a little more cold, just say, “Did I say something? I’m not perfect at this, I honestly don’t know what I’m doing, I don’t mean to offend you, what could I have done differently?” I think that just doing that alone can save a lot of business transactions from really going south.


Jim MacGillavry:         Very quickly, the word homosexual, you don’t like that word.


Jenn T Grace:              I’m not a fan of it, no.


Jim MacGillavry:         Tell us why.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah so if we look- and we’ll not get into politics today, but if we look at who uses the phrase homosexual, it’s oftentimes people who are very anti the LGBT community. So you’ll hear people that are far, far, far right, possibly tea party far right, who will say it’s against what the Bible taught, homosexuality is a sin. And the word homosexuality in a scientific setting is perfectly fine, or in like a research setting, or a university type of setting because it- heterosexual, homosexual, like they’re equal, right? But at the same time it’s been so used in so many derogatory ways that if the average person uses it, it almost implies that you’re coming from that derogatory standpoint when nine out of ten times you’re not really. But the person that you’re talking to doesn’t know that. So especially in a completely brand new setting where we’re meeting for the first time and you start to say homosexual, it makes you take a step back and think, ‘Okay why is this the word that they’re choosing to use? Is it because they’re following all of this anti-LGBT chatter out there? Or do they just not know?’ And the average person unfortunately doesn’t take the time to find out where your intentions are coming from. They just make a snap judgment.


Jim MacGillavry:         And the term gay community is not a good one?


Jenn T Grace:              I think it’s okay. So the LGBT community is an interesting one because you have lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and that’s LGBT. But in reality most people don’t know what LGBT stands for. So if you look at my tagline it’s ‘I teach straight people how to market to gay people.’ When I did that I actually got a lot of hell from people in the community who would say, “Well why aren’t you saying I teach straight people how to market to the LGBT community?” And I would say to them, “Because the straight people I’m talking to don’t know what LGBT stands for, but they know what gay means.” So if I can get you to understand what gay means and bring you along that educational journey, for you to then understand what LGBT means, then you’ll start using the term. But if my market is people who don’t know what that stands for, it’s not going to resonate with them because they don’t know. They don’t know what they don’t know. So it’s interesting. So you can say gay most of the time and be okay for the most part, but it’s not always the case because now there’s LGBTQ, there’s LGBTQIA, there’s all these different acronyms, and it just kind of gets more and more out of control. Saying gay, you’re pretty safe but it is exclusionary in a lot of ways because it isn’t including everybody.


Jim MacGillavry:         Okay, I have a quote from the book, it’s statistics from, ‘No wait you do look gay. The Seven Mistakes Preventing You from Selling to the $830 Billion LGBT Market.’ That is huge.


Jenn T Grace:              It is.


Jim MacGillavry:         The Hispanic is $1 trillion, the African American is $1 billion, LGBT- it’s remarkable. So there’s a lot of money out there to be spent.


Jenn T Grace:              There’s a lot of money.


Jim MacGillavry:         And for people who are marketing whatever it is, to have the opportunity to make a lot of money, put it that way. Give us a little- before we started the show, we talked a little bit about- getting into the marketing aspect of this, you gave me some examples of why it’s important that businesses understand what you’re all about and what the LGBT community is all about when it comes to marketing to us. You gave really good examples about going into a hotel. Give us that story.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah so the previous story that I was telling about my own personal experience, I had that problem where I just couldn’t reconcile what I was publicly saying versus what was happening internally. So this kind of happens on a magnified level, and that was just kind of a small-ish, corporate-ish type of business. When we’re talking about big, big business, so I always say hotels because it’s the one that people can resonate with the most. So if you are a hotel chain that is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars most likely to market to the LGBT community, they’re marketing to the Hispanic community, they’re marketing to African Americans, they’re marketing to all different groups.


Jim MacGillavry:         Specifically?


Jenn T Grace:              Yes.


Jim MacGillavry:         Okay.


Jenn T Grace:              So there’s a lot of different- so I call it inclusion-based marketing where you’re intentionally including all the diversities into one type of ad campaign, rather than doing it broken out into all these little littler campaigns.


Jim MacGillavry:         Is it subtle?


Jenn T Grace:              Yes it should be subtle, it should totally be subtle. However you have companies that go the complete extreme, and it’s not subtle at all, and that almost had a disservice to it. But if we’re looking at hotels. So this hotel A spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to get my business. And I go on their website and I’m like, you know I’ve seen all these ads, they’ve been in different magazines that I’m reading, they’re very subtly showing that they’re supportive of the community, they’re using LGBT people in the same ad as they’re using- that just have straight people in it, it’s like oh they’re doing it right, I feel so great about this.


Jim MacGillavry:         I was going to say, that’s not a bad thing.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah that’s a great thing to see LGBT people alongside straight couples, or different diversities, or different generations; like that’s a really good way to go about it where you’re including everybody, because then you’re resonating- it just shows like hey they like people, all people. They’re not trying to single me out as an LGBT person. So regardless, I get excited, I’m like I’m going to go to hotel A even though I’m a big loyal fan, and a rewards member of the other hotel, I’m going to try this one. And I book a room for my wife and I for a vacation, and I book one bed because indeed we’re married, and she is my wife, and the person at the front desk is adamant with me that I should have a two bed reservation.


Jim MacGillavry:         That actually happened?


Jenn T Grace:              It happens all the time. It’s more often with men than women, and I think that’s just merely because a lot of friends, girlfriends, sisters travel together, and a lot of times they do end up sharing beds because it’s just how women are. But with men it’s much less tolerated. So this happens and I have probably 100 examples of people I know that this has happened to. And what happens is that now I have to get into this awkward battle of the wills with the person at the front desk of, ‘My reservation very clearly says that we wanted a king bed.’ And then saying like, ‘No, we have you booked down here for two queens.’ And it’s not that person’s place to be telling me what type of bed I need when I clearly said it in the reservation online, clearly saying it at the front desk. So what happens there is a lot of LGBT people, we just want to show up and get in our room, and not be bothered with some kind of ‘I have to stand on my soapbox and educate you at this particular moment because you’re doing it wrong.’ But what happens is that now I have a terrible taste in my mouth over that one experience, when in reality it’s just that one front desk person. The person next to them at the front desk might have been a completely different story. So if a company isn’t properly trained on how to communicate with the community, or how to ask the right questions; because it could have been a legitimate like, ‘Are you sure you want two beds?’ Like it could have been like a legitimate, ‘Oh just wanted to make sure,’ but there’s a different way that you could ask that. And what happens is that they end up losing business, because then I’m going to be like- when somebody says, “Oh hotel A, I just saw this great ad,” I’m going to be like, “No don’t do it,” because now you’re going to have that awkward encounter at the front desk, when that may or may not be reality.


Jim MacGillavry:         And word of mouth can be deadly.


Jenn T Grace:              It’s very deadly, especially in the LGBT community.


Jim MacGillavry:         Just want to mention again for those of you who have tuned in, we’re talking with Jenn Grace, who is a professional lesbian and basically we’re talking about that she has a very specific and a rather unique business marketing manner, and that’s what we’re talking about today. It’s so important, but it goes wider, there’s a wider spectrum of what you’re all about. And we could talk hours for that, and I would love to do that maybe someday we could do another show as something a little bit more specific. But that’s who we’re talking with today. Let’s talk a little bit about your website. Could you again tell us what the website is?


Jenn T Grace:              Sure if you go to that will be- so if you go to the search box there are hundreds and hundreds of things for you to read, or listen to, or videos to watch, and things to download, and almost all of it’s free. So if anyone has a very specific, ‘I heard somebody say this phrase,’ chances are I’ve probably written about it. And if I haven’t, send me an email or go through my contact page and I will write about it. Because everything I’ve written about it personal, none of it is ever like, ‘Oh I think this is what would happen.’ It’s all, ‘I’ve had this happen, this is how I handle it, this is how I advise the client to do it,’ so it’s all actual personal experience. All 500 plus things on there.


Jim MacGillavry:         And I’ve been on it, it’s a great education. Do you feel that when these instances occur to you and to many other people, do you think it’s like profiling? Is it like that, or no?


Jenn T Grace:              I think it’s unconscious bias. So if you look in the kind of diversity realm of things, unconscious bias is always talked about, and it’s really just when you have this bias and you don’t even recognize that it’s there. I think more often than not that’s the case, and I can give you a personal story, and I’m sure my mom would not be thrilled with me saying this on air, but I use this example in speeches I give across the country. Is that it was Thanksgiving a couple of years ago, and I’m in her living room, and it’s her, it’s my wife and I, and our two kids. Our two kids are in another room, and my mom and I are sitting across from each other on the couch. And out of nowhere she leans across and she looks at me with the most serious face and whispers to me, “Do you only work with gay people?” So for those listening, her question was, ‘Do you only work with gay people?’ But she whispered it as she leaned across the couch. And it took me a second because I was so confused, and of course I called her out because that’s what I do, I’m like, “Why are you whispering to me?” And I just kind of blurted it out. And she stopped and she’s like, “I have no idea why I did that.” Like she genuinely had no idea why she did that. To me, that’s unconscious bias at its finest. So she still has a tough time, and a lot of parents do with having LGBT children, so it’s no fault of her, she’s come around by all means. But- and this happened probably three years ago, it was the fact that she still has a hard time actually saying the word gay out loud, even in her own living room just sitting with her daughter and daughter-in-law. So if you apply that to a business setting where we might be sitting in a crowded Starbucks where you’ve got all the machines grinding behind you, and you can barely hear your conversation as it is, and you lean in and say something about LGBT or gay in a very slow whisper, that says to me that while on the surface you might be saying, ‘I’m pro LGBT, I’m doing this great campaign, I’m marketing the community,’ it may not be the reality because you’re still uncomfortable actually saying the word. So it’s very small nuanced things like that, that it’s like okay. So I don’t necessarily think she was coming from a bad place, because I remember when I told her that we were getting engaged, she was more distraught that I was marrying a Yankees fan instead of a Redsox fan. She was distraught over this. Not that I’m marrying a woman, distraught that she’s a Yankees fan. Correct. So it’s one of those things that I think that’s what at play most of the time. I don’t think it’s profiling, I think people just don’t know what they don’t know, and it’s my job to tell them, or at least help them see the things that they don’t know.


Jim MacGillavry:         Yeah I always have a belief see one, do one, teach one. See it, and practice it, and teach another. We do need a lot of education. We promised not to get into politics but I do have to mention that with the latest issues with bathrooms and all that, quickly your thoughts? Is this a bad thing or is it making it more difficult for you to get the word out? Is it making it more difficult for you to get people to listen to you because of all these forces that we have in the media, which we won’t name, one is specific. And you have all these politicians that are having these silly little conversations about, ‘I’ll let them into a bathroom, sure.’


Jenn T Grace:              It seems ridiculous.


Jim MacGillavry:         I mean come on, what do you think is going on? Is it fear? Monger?


Jenn T Grace:              It’s all fear. It’s all fear-based, and I honestly think it’s a small percentage and a minority percentage of people who actually think these things. I think it’s really just kind of media hype kind of going out of control because when you have media that’s owned by many networks owned by one person, or four people, then obviously we’re being fed something that may not be the reality. But for me it’s actually a good thing. So more people that are talking about the bathroom bills, the more people who are upset and boycotting Target, or going to Target because Target’s saying like, ‘We don’t care, anyone’s welcome in our bathrooms.’ Target’s been a longstanding supporter of the community forever anyway. The more that this is talked about, the more people are going to Google and asking questions of, ‘What do I do? And how do I handle this?’ And my website is filled with resources so a lot of times I come up high in Google, so people are finding my information. So it’s actually a good thing that this conversation is happening because I’m very much the devil’s advocate. So if somebody came to me- and I have clients who have not notoriously had the best policies or gone about things the best way as far as the LGBT community goes, but they recognize that they’ve been missing an opportunity, and they realize that they’re shooting off their own foot, and they don’t know why. I’m not going to be like, ‘Oh hey I can’t work with you because your previous reputation was that you were terrible.’ I have to help them get there, because when I help them get there it’s going to help so many other people. It’s going to help their employees, it’s going to help the customers that they serve, but I have to make sure that they’re genuine and really kind of sniff out that authenticity piece to make sure that they’re really, really legit. So the more this happens, the actually better it is for me personally.


Jim MacGillavry:         And to be legitimate about it is the most important thing, but we cannot ignore the $830 billion number there that is involved in this. And so we have a few minutes, not too long left, what would you like for our viewers to- I’m going to put you on the spot.


Jenn T Grace:              Sure.


Jim MacGillavry:         What would you like to say to our viewers in regards to what we’ve been talking about? For our community which is very small.


Jenn T Grace:              Yeah, of course.


Jim MacGillavry:         Give us a little hint as to what we should be thinking about now.


Jenn T Grace:              I would say my parting advice would be it doesn’t have to be hard. So if you are watching this and you genuinely do not care whether someone is gay or straight, it’s just kind of a non-issue to you, then just roll with it, just go with it. Go where things are naturally comfortable. So if you’re a business owner, if you’re an attorney, or somebody that’s in a service-based business, and it doesn’t matter to you, then just say, ‘Hey it doesn’t matter to me.’ It’s honestly not that complicated, and I think a lot of this is common sense, and it’s just a matter of being respectful to each other on a human to human level, not even gay or straight level. So I want to always- because I’ve had presentations that I’ve done, and people will come back to me and say, “I’m totally overwhelmed by what you just said.” I had this happen at a conference not that long ago, and I revised all of my material and how I presented it because of that comment. Because I don’t want people to be like, ‘This is so complicated, this is so risky, this is so politically charged right now,’ that they’re so afraid, they won’t do anything. It’s rather just dip your toe in the pond, just start talking to people, start saying to people even in one-on-one settings like, “Your sexuality doesn’t really matter to me, like I want to do business with you because of you. Being gay or straight really is not a factor here.” And I think the more people can just take that little baby step, the baby step will then become a walk, the walk will become a run, and then all of a sudden they’ll be getting a lot of business just by saying that it doesn’t matter to them. It doesn’t have to be complicated.


Jim MacGillavry:         And it just doesn’t about to be about business.


Jenn T Grace:              No, no.


Jim MacGillavry:         It could be about being human and having an understanding. And not accepting, but this is who I am, this is who I am, and that’s basically what this is all about. Lots to talk about.


Jenn T Grace:              There is.


Jim MacGillavry:         This has been really great, and I hope to hear from you again, and maybe we could do something again, and you can let me know what you would like to talk about.


Jenn T Grace:              Absolutely.


Jim MacGillavry:         For those of you watching, we have been talking with Jenn Grace, who by the way has a couple books out, and she has a very specific and rather unique business marketing manner which is very important. But when you come right down to the nitty gritty, it’s basically this is who I am.


Jenn T Grace:              It’s owning your true self.


Jim MacGillavry:         And get over it. There’s a lot of- okay.


Jenn T Grace:              The day I go out of business is a good day, is how I see it. I would love to put myself out of business. I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon, but that would be a good day.


Jim MacGillavry:         Jenn, I seriously want to thank you so much for being a guest on my show.


Jenn T Grace:              My pleasure.


Jim MacGillavry:         And it’s been a really great honor to meet you, really.


Jenn T Grace:              Thank you.


Jim MacGillavry:         For those of you watching again, we want to thank you for watching Focus, and of course we hope that you will continue to watch the other shows that are brought to you by your neighbors in the town of Winston by way of Charter Cable. Again, our thanks to you, and of course we look forward to seeing you again real soon.